Compulsion-based schooling is evil. You know it.

[RandomUser191]

brian, please stop it with the bigotry.

you're a libertarian aren't you? why can't you just allow others to disagree with you?

some of us happen to not agree with you and we have a right to do so. who are you to dictate what people are supposed to think about different subjects?

if you are so bothered by it... make a freakin' documentary about it (i'm not joking). i don't mind subjective documentaries as long as they aren't COMPLETELY biased (like michael moore's "capitalism: a love story"); that movie was basically "capitalism = bad/socialism = good".

[brian423]

brian, please stop it with the bigotry.

you're a libertarian aren't you? why can't you just allow others to disagree with you?

"Bigotry"? It's beyond my power to allow or disallow anyone else's point of view. I think you're just whining about my strong language. My traumatic experience of school, from which I have yet to recover, makes me hot-blooded on this issue. I don't know what else to tell you about that.

[MarmieDearest]

If I have kids they're probably not going through the public school system - on the other hand, "home schooling" seems a bit too precious and sheltered to me, as well as not exposing kids to groups of people who are different from their family or themselves. I have to reconcile something between avoiding the damagingly strict, boring public school system (which is essentially designed to produce obedient workers for the capitalist structure like some kind of educational factory) and it's gotten worse over the years...and the overprotective isolation of home schooling.

I think ADD and ADHD are over diagnosed because of the public school system as well.

I like the idea of alternative schools where there is less structure and more creativity, or specific focus on things like the performing arts or fine arts.

[MarmieDearest]

Tarring all schools with the same brush is unfair to those who have a fair idea of what they are doing.

The idea of school is good, though perhaps narrow.

Wrong! It's not only fair but necessary to tar [b]all compulsion-based schooling with the same brush. [/b]How can you possibly justify a North Korean model of learning as preparation for life in a liberal democracy? And no, I don't think I'm exaggerating much by invoking North Korea. "The medium is the message," said Marshall McLuhan. You can't make kids understand freedom by threatening them with punishment if they don't, let's say, memorize the Bill of Rights. You might think you're teaching liberty by the content of the lesson, but you're actually teaching submission to tyranny by the method of instruction.

Enough with your ends-justify-the-means bullshit, please.

I disagree with the bolded statement. You're being overly emotionally biased on this issue. While I see some of the same problems you see, on the other hand, compulsion based schooling raises literacy rates, for example.

[brian423]

While I see some of the same problems you see, on the other hand, compulsion based schooling raises literacy rates, for example.

Homeschooled (or "unschooled") kids do very well on literacy tests—and it's a safe bet that they do it without adopting an attitude of anti-intellectualism out of spite. Children and teenagers do not naturally have such an attitude. In a vicious circle, compulsion-based schooling creates that mentality in them, which is then invoked to rationalize the very system that created it. It's like the war on drugs: It mostly generates the very problems it purports to solve.

[MarmieDearest]

While I see some of the same problems you see, on the other hand, compulsion based schooling raises literacy rates, for example.

Homeschooled (or "unschooled") kids do very well on literacy tests—and it's a safe bet that they do it without adopting an attitude of anti-intellectualism out of spite. Children and teenagers do not naturally have such an attitude. In a vicious circle, compulsion-based schooling creates that mentality in them, which is then invoked to rationalize the very system that created it. It's like the war on drugs: It mostly generates the very problems it purports to solve.

Home-schooled children don't necessarily have enough chances to socialize with people different from themselves (you know, go out and make friends of their own) and children who go out to school learn more independence from their parents in some cases, they have more freedom from their family and their own selfhood. I weigh all of this in when considering why school isn't entirely a bad thing, but rather a thing that needs to be changed. I don't have any concrete ideas about what that would look like, but part of the problem is being expected to sit still in a repressive environment and rote memorization and standardized testing and all that.

Plus kids who go to schools can participate in team sports or arts programs, like theater and chorus. I had dance classes and piano lessons outside of compulsion-based schooling, but in school I got to do things like act in plays, sing in choral competitions, decorate and ride on homecoming parade floats for art club, even though I didn't play sports.

In high school, that was my world away from my family and my parents. It's kind of transitional into becoming an adult.

Homeschooling just seems too sheltered to me, but on the other hand there has to be alternatives to the way public school is now. One of my friends has a daughter and they were testing this poor child for how fast she could read in the first grade. I was floored. TImed? At the age of six? Oh yeah, no pressure or anything, what a way to make a kid hate reading.

I also associate homeschooling with insular religious groups, and I felt sorry for one of my friends whose parents pulled her out of public high school to homeschool her so she wouldn't date black boys.

An old acquaintance of mine homeschools her kids and, yes, they are part of some really extreme religious group and lulzy ironically a military family. I'm just like...um...

Plus, most importantly, you're not factoring in low-income children from troubled homes who would be neglected at home rather than educated. A lot of the "unschooled" statistics you're citing are from more middle class families, or at least working class families who work to educate their children.

Public school educates the masses, look back 100-150 years if you don't have any idea what I'm referring to. The literacy rates have soared in the past century, the masses are more educated than they've ever been.

[RandomUser191]

While I see some of the same problems you see, on the other hand, compulsion based schooling raises literacy rates, for example.

Homeschooled (or "unschooled") kids do very well on literacy tests—and it's a safe bet that they do it without adopting an attitude of anti-intellectualism out of spite. Children and teenagers do not naturally have such an attitude. In a vicious circle, compulsion-based schooling creates that mentality in them, which is then invoked to rationalize the very system that created it. It's like the war on drugs: It mostly generates the very problems it purports to solve.

Home-schooled children don't necessarily have enough chances to socialize with people different from themselves (you know, go out and make friends of their own) and children who go out to school learn more independence from their parents in some cases, they have more freedom from their family and their own selfhood. I weigh all of this in when considering why school isn't entirely a bad thing, but rather a thing that needs to be changed. I don't have any concrete ideas about what that would look like, but part of the problem is being expected to sit still in a repressive environment and rote memorization and standardized testing and all that.

Plus kids who go to schools can participate in team sports or arts programs, like theater and chorus. I had dance classes and piano lessons outside of compulsion-based schooling, but in school I got to do things like act in plays, sing in choral competitions, decorate and ride on homecoming parade floats for art club, even though I didn't play sports.

In high school, that was my world away from my family and my parents. It's kind of transitional into becoming an adult.

Homeschooling just seems too sheltered to me, but on the other hand there has to be alternatives to the way public school is now. One of my friends has a daughter and they were testing this poor child for how fast she could read in the first grade. I was floored. TImed? At the age of six? Oh yeah, no pressure or anything, what a way to make a kid hate reading.

I also associate homeschooling with insular religious groups, and I felt sorry for one of my friends whose parents pulled her out of public high school to homeschool her so she wouldn't date black boys.

An old acquaintance of mine homeschools her kids and, yes, they are part of some really extreme religious group and lulzy ironically a military family. I'm just like...um...

Plus, most importantly, you're not factoring in low-income children from troubled homes who would be neglected at home rather than educated. A lot of the "unschooled" statistics you're citing are from more middle class families, or at least working class families who work to educate their children.

Public school educates the masses, look back 100-150 years if you don't have any idea what I'm referring to. The literacy rates have soared in the past century, the masses are more educated than they've ever been.

very good arguments marmie! you also added well known examples of everyday life... *clap* clap*

being stuck with a bunch of kids in school 5 times a week has its good points. here, even untill high school we partake in most classes in the same groups (like in japan for example).
it usually creates a certain sence of unity and eventhough several groups within the class are formed (especially during high school), you get to at least know people's habits if not their stories. it doesn't matter if i liked the guy/girl during my school time, she/he will always be my "former classmate".

now, being at home all the time will never make you gain as much experience as a school would and not all experiences of school life are bad.

it's not all bullying, mobing and discrimination (by both fellow students and teachers).

[shytiger]

Home-schooled children don't necessarily have enough chances to socialize with people different from themselves (you know, go out and make friends of their own) and children who go out to school learn more independence from their parents in some cases, they have more freedom from their family and their own selfhood. I weigh all of this in when considering why school isn't entirely a bad thing, but rather a thing that needs to be changed. I don't have any concrete ideas about what that would look like, but part of the problem is being expected to sit still in a repressive environment and rote memorization and standardized testing and all that.

Plus kids who go to schools can participate in team sports or arts programs, like theater and chorus. I had dance classes and piano lessons outside of compulsion-based schooling, but in school I got to do things like act in plays, sing in choral competitions, decorate and ride on homecoming parade floats for art club, even though I didn't play sports.

In high school, that was my world away from my family and my parents. It's kind of transitional into becoming an adult.

Homeschooling just seems too sheltered to me, but on the other hand there has to be alternatives to the way public school is now. One of my friends has a daughter and they were testing this poor child for how fast she could read in the first grade. I was floored. TImed? At the age of six? Oh yeah, no pressure or anything, what a way to make a kid hate reading.

I also associate homeschooling with insular religious groups, and I felt sorry for one of my friends whose parents pulled her out of public high school to homeschool her so she wouldn't date black boys.

An old acquaintance of mine homeschools her kids and, yes, they are part of some really extreme religious group and lulzy ironically a military family. I'm just like...um...

Plus, most importantly, you're not factoring in low-income children from troubled homes who would be neglected at home rather than educated. A lot of the "unschooled" statistics you're citing are from more middle class families, or at least working class families who work to educate their children.

Public school educates the masses, look back 100-150 years if you don't have any idea what I'm referring to. The literacy rates have soared in the past century, the masses are more educated than they've ever been.

We are homeschoolers and tend to avoid the religious people. Socializing isn't much of a problem with the homeschooling group my wife founded. Homeschooling is work. You have to do everything yourself, so it's not for every parent to try. With schools, of course, "socializing" is not always that great. In fact, school can be a living hell for a lot of children with bullying by BOTH other students and teachers (not to mention parents helicoptering over their kids to "fit in") creating lasting psychological damage that can last well into adulthood. Some kids do great in school and they ought to go. My brother, a protector Guardian, was very well suited to the school social environment for example. Some schools are better than others too. Many schools have a certain type of child they want to have and aren't equipped to handle "different" kids. There is nothing wrong with a child shopping around to different schools with his/her parents.

The bottom line: Every parent has a responsibility to ensure that their child is happy with school and not try to ram their square child into a round school.

[MarmieDearest]

Home-schooled children don't necessarily have enough chances to socialize with people different from themselves (you know, go out and make friends of their own) and children who go out to school learn more independence from their parents in some cases, they have more freedom from their family and their own selfhood. I weigh all of this in when considering why school isn't entirely a bad thing, but rather a thing that needs to be changed. I don't have any concrete ideas about what that would look like, but part of the problem is being expected to sit still in a repressive environment and rote memorization and standardized testing and all that.

Plus kids who go to schools can participate in team sports or arts programs, like theater and chorus. I had dance classes and piano lessons outside of compulsion-based schooling, but in school I got to do things like act in plays, sing in choral competitions, decorate and ride on homecoming parade floats for art club, even though I didn't play sports.

In high school, that was my world away from my family and my parents. It's kind of transitional into becoming an adult.

Homeschooling just seems too sheltered to me, but on the other hand there has to be alternatives to the way public school is now. One of my friends has a daughter and they were testing this poor child for how fast she could read in the first grade. I was floored. TImed? At the age of six? Oh yeah, no pressure or anything, what a way to make a kid hate reading.

I also associate homeschooling with insular religious groups, and I felt sorry for one of my friends whose parents pulled her out of public high school to homeschool her so she wouldn't date black boys.

An old acquaintance of mine homeschools her kids and, yes, they are part of some really extreme religious group and lulzy ironically a military family. I'm just like...um...

Plus, most importantly, you're not factoring in low-income children from troubled homes who would be neglected at home rather than educated. A lot of the "unschooled" statistics you're citing are from more middle class families, or at least working class families who work to educate their children.

Public school educates the masses, look back 100-150 years if you don't have any idea what I'm referring to. The literacy rates have soared in the past century, the masses are more educated than they've ever been.

We are homeschoolers and tend to avoid the religious people. Socializing isn't much of a problem with the homeschooling group my wife founded. Homeschooling is work. You have to do everything yourself, so it's not for every parent to try. With schools, of course, "socializing" is not always that great. In fact, school can be a living hell for a lot of children with bullying by BOTH other students and teachers (not to mention parents helicoptering over their kids to "fit in") creating lasting psychological damage that can last well into adulthood. Some kids do great in school and they ought to go. My brother, a protector Guardian, was very well suited to the school social environment for example. Some schools are better than others too. Many schools have a certain type of child they want to have and aren't equipped to handle "different" kids. There is nothing wrong with a child shopping around to different schools with his/her parents.

The bottom line: Every parent has a responsibility to ensure that their child is happy with school and not try to ram their square child into a round school.

I took some education classes in college, and in the first semester we learned about "existential" styles of teaching, and I've long been aware of Montessori schools and alternative schools. In fact, the high school I went to had a fantastic arts program (it's what we were known for, and it has since I graduated become one of those world International Baccalaurate magnet schools) and a high school in the neighboring region was, specifically, an arts high school. So I know my high school experience was better than some people's ...also, I am most likely a Performer Artisan so I was able to find and adapt to my own social group and feel reasonably popular, despite my differences from the "preppier" straight-laces groups of mainly Guardians who looked like boring oppressive clones to me at that age (though some Artisans gravitate to those groups as well, typically because of being very involved in sports)...I was lucky, because I've been asked by some people my age what the heck kind of school I went to, that they didn't have large groups of "artistic" students at their school - but some of my friends were actually skaters, punks, and even dropped out of school. I honestly considered dropping out of school myself my junior year, but I was threatened by my Guardian grandparents with immediately homelessness if I did not graduate I laugh about it now, because it was the only way for them to keep me in check, I was not thinking long term at that point...I didn't even go to college directly after high school and had no interest in going until I was in my twenties and had already worked and traveled the country a bit.

But anyway I still like the idea of "alternative schools" instead of homeschooling. That's just me.

[MarmieDearest]

very good arguments marmie! you also added well known examples of everyday life... *clap* clap*

being stuck with a bunch of kids in school 5 times a week has its good points. here, even untill high school we partake in most classes in the same groups (like in japan for example).
it usually creates a certain sence of unity and eventhough several groups within the class are formed (especially during high school), you get to at least know people's habits if not their stories. it doesn't matter if i liked the guy/girl during my school time, she/he will always be my "former classmate".

now, being at home all the time will never make you gain as much experience as a school would and not all experiences of school life are bad.

it's not all bullying, mobing and discrimination (by both fellow students and teachers).

thank you...yes you it gives you a feeling of community or group cohesion with your fellow classmates, I still have a zillion friends from high school on my facebook ...I think these ranges of experiences and exposure to groups that aren't carefully controlled by parents is very important...it's just that some students don't respond well to certain kinds of education.

Like in high school I got very bored with busy work, and I always had trouble with things that seemed "dry" even when I was in elementary school. I used to get in trouble for talking in class, passing notes, or that kind of thing as a very young student, though I was never consider "a bad kid" at all until high school, when I got in trouble a few times for doing things like skipping class, or this one time that I hit a boy with my French book because he knocked it off my desk roughhousing with another guy, and I said "pick that up" and he said "pick up yourself bitch" and, so I did, then promptly beat him upside the head with it. I think that's the worst thing I ever did in school, but I still think it was funny and deserved. I didn't actually hurt him.

But, like, the benefits of schools are important to keep in mind, and if the overall atmosphere of schools are more conducive to different kinds of learning, that's better.

I remember I loved art and drama class because they were in these big rooms where we had more freedom to move around. I also had a FANTASTIC English teacher, but she was certified to work with gifted students and she was very, very interesting and engaging, it was never "busy work" with her...and even in that class I sometimes didn't do the readings, though.

I know bullying and things have reached epidemic proportions, so I do agree with shytiger that parents should make sure their individual child is in the best possible environment. My family did as best as they could for me without paying to send me to a private arts school, which I would have loved but they could not afford, I think.

I entered some Behavioral Disability classes (as an adult in college doing school observations, not as a student) and they also are in rooms where they are more allowed to move around, like an art class, and they get more individual attention. BD is mainly for "ADD" cases, but the regular classes in that school seemed to have an almost military-like horrible oppression, I wouldn't have been happy there, and it made me wonder why I even considered becoming a teacher.