Doctor Doom

[fuzzynavelnot21]

I have no issues with what you said. I think most of it makes sense. However, the quote you put up didn't say anything about making the world 'perfect'. It only said 'change'. How did you make that leap? Improving something doesn't mean you are unrealistically striving for perfection, which I'm sure you're going to agree with. But then why stomp on someone's idea of making changes? I'm just not seeing the reasoning still for that point.

[Goodrum]

Out of the crooked timber of mankind, no straight thing will ever be made
-Immanuel Kant

The crooked timber, the knots, the flaws, the imperfection of it is part of the beauty I think.

Timber is a natural material, and each piece tells part of the story of the tree that produced it.

Branches that are engulfed by the growing tree cause knots. Insect attack causes the tree to lay down extra wood to protect the tree giving a lump or ‘burl’, or may produce a resin or sap pocket. Fires cause damage that is often reflected in resin pockets, or may result in the tree trying to heal itself by laying down a new cambium that traps bark. These, and other experiences contribute to the character of each piece of wood, and makes each length of timber unique or individual. This individuality gives anything built from the wood a character of its own.



Architects can choose to express this individuality by selecting ‘feature’ timber that displays these growth characteristics.

Each imperfect piece tells it own story.


Can you imagine how...stagnant our world would be if it were full of straight and perfect timber. Every person has their own story, some of these we probably would rather not hear, but by knowing all the stories it can help...we learn-no?

Well, hopefully some of the time anyway.

There is a really beautiful quote that sort of acknowledges Kant's point but accepts life and people anyway, the healer in me has always had a greater need to love the crooked timber, the knots and imperfections "the so called unlovables/untouchables" more. That's just a personal thing and it isn't manifested by bouncing around waving my kaftan and beads, it is quite planned. Sort of.

[Goodrum]

I'm not able to find the quote, thought I had around here somewhere.

[Johan]

I have no issues with what you said. I think most of it makes sense. However, the quote you put up didn't say anything about making the world 'perfect'. It only said 'change'. How did you make that leap? Improving something doesn't mean you are unrealistically striving for perfection, which I'm sure you're going to agree with. But then why stomp on someone's idea of making changes? I'm just not seeing the reasoning still for that point.

Fuz, you'll have to talk me through this (not being facetious)...

I put up a quote from Kant, under it I said that I throw it out when people start talking about 'changing the world'. Bear in mind I'm referring to my experience in RL here, so perhaps this is where you think I've made a 'leap'. I state it explicitly.

When most people I've met talk about ''changing the world'' they mean ''making it better according to my definition of my better''. If things were exactly the way they wanted, the world would be a ''perfect place''. And those are direct quotes I've heard several times.

Again, I reiterate, this is what I've experienced. Repeatedly. Some people's idea of a 'perfect' world is where everyone behaves responsibly and follows the rules. Others imagine a world where they can act freely, all the time, without judgement or persecution. Again, society is cut from the 'crooked' timber of mankind, so no 'straight' (i.e perfectly conforming to your preferences) thing can ever be made,

Improving something doesn't mean you are unrealistically striving for perfection, which I'm sure you're going to agree with.

No, it doesn't necessarily mean you are ''unrealistically striving for perfection'', but it is often the case with people I've met. Young and old alike. Even people older than you Fuz

But then why stomp on someone's idea of making changes? I'm just not seeing the reasoning still for that point.

You're not seeing the reasoning for that particular point, as there is no reasoning for it in the post. Why not?

Because I did not make that point.

The world is a vastly complex place, where effects of actions can only be grossly approximated, if at all. If you re-read this particular passage....

I just offer Kant's view that perhaps imperfection is the way of things, to get people to set their minds to more manageable tasks and be satisfied with their necessarily less-than perfect results. This is opposed to being continually dejected over their failure to realise some vague ideal of a 'perfect world', which is an impossible task.

..you'll see that I am not 'stomping on someone's idea of making changes?' , per say.e.g. If your idea is teaching creationism alongside evolution, then I'll stomp on your idea. If you want to make politicians accountable for their incompetence, then I'll lend a hand.

Setting manageable, attainable goals is far more conducive to human happiness than far-flung fantasies (which is what a 'perfect' world is). Manageable tasks includes ''attempting to achieve social change'', it just won't be perfect.
So don't torture yourself over the imperfect result.

My point was, considering the variables involved, any solution for the ills of the earth will be radically modified from it's conception throughout it's application. Get used to it.

You on my wavelength?

[Johan]

That's just a personal thing and it isn't manifested by bouncing around waving my kaftan and beads, it is quite planned. Sort of.

Love the image! And your ''definitely maybe'' approach to planning

[shytiger]

John, I appreciate what you're saying. I think that Rationals help Idealists to avoid deluding ourselves while we help Rationals to remember that real change (and success) is possible even if it is difficult.

[Johan]

John, I appreciate what you're saying. I think that Rationals help Idealists to avoid deluding ourselves while we help Rationals to remember that real change (and success) is possible even if it is difficult.

I fully agree Shy, but my point is not that real change cannot happen (Just look at history, maaan), just that it is highly unlikely to either play out the way you expected it or achieve an ''ideal'' state. Just look at Marx and communism....Think he had gulags in mind?

[shytiger]

John, I appreciate what you're saying. I think that Rationals help Idealists to avoid deluding ourselves while we help Rationals to remember that real change (and success) is possible even if it is difficult.

I fully agree Shy, but my point is not that real change cannot happen (Just look at history, maaan), just that it is highly unlikely to either play out the way you expected it or achieve an ''ideal'' state. Just look at Marx and communism....Think he had gulags in mind?

So you are saying that the Kant quote does not mean that progress and change is not possible but that whatever we do it will be imperfect?

[Johan]

John, I appreciate what you're saying. I think that Rationals help Idealists to avoid deluding ourselves while we help Rationals to remember that real change (and success) is possible even if it is difficult.

I fully agree Shy, but my point is not that real change cannot happen (Just look at history, maaan), just that it is highly unlikely to either play out the way you expected it or achieve an ''ideal'' state. Just look at Marx and communism....Think he had gulags in mind?

So you are saying that the Kant quote does not mean that progress and change is not possible but that whatever we do it will be imperfect?

Indeed. At least as far as I'm concerned. It would be nonsensical to say that progress and change are not possible. History happens after all. 100 years ago, we didn't have computers. Nor did women have full voting right in many western nations. But any social endeavor, society etc, etc will be flawed. As it must be. What constitutes 'not-flawed' is subjective in the extreme

[fuzzynavelnot21]

Yea, think I'm understanding just fine. It's simply a point not worth making though. Flawed people won't bring about perfect change. Duh right? So why do we need reminded of this? Being an Idealist doesn't mean we all of the time actually think that some Ideal is what will happen. How unrealistic. But we aren't going to effect any change by not setting a goal, and when Idealists set goals, they tend to aim high because why not? Why aim low? We're called 'unrealistic' because of that, not because we actually think 'perfect' is achievable. I hope I make sense, haha. I question myself all the time. Maybe someone else can explain what I'm saying if it still doesn't make sense. And John, I don't think we're saying different things actually. I think I'm saying, "What's the point in saying what you said?"