My Identity: A Reintroduction

[Olga]

But if you change their (churches') function, the spirit will leave too!

[stellarrenegade]

But if you change their (churches') function, the spirit will leave too!

First of all, I don't intend to go in changing anyone's churches. It's not my place and would not only be frustrating and inappropriate, but would be akin to spinning one's wheels in a muddy ditch. No, I plan to start something outside the churches.

And how would the spirit leave, too? I'm confused. Are you assuming that the Spirit is there in the first place? Or do you mean something different than I do by "Spirit"? And why would it leave?

[Olga]

And how would the spirit leave, too? I'm confused. Are you assuming that the Spirit is there in the first place? Or do you mean something different than I do by "Spirit"? And why would it leave?

I meant that churches have a certain environment, that of the sanctuary, and it is that way because of what is in there. You follow?

Ok, I do not believe in the Spirit because I have no idea what it is, but if you go inside a place, and the environment of that place changes you (in this case more calm and peaceful), then surely it is the environment that is responsible, and not just that building? I say the spirit is there, because a transformation is possible. Now, if you change the envronment, surely the transformation will go away as well? So, the spirit leaves. I apologize for using the "Spirit" in a way that is not familiar to you, yet I believe it is not familiar to anyone anyway. You can say there are Spirit(s) in buddism as well. And using it the same way while applied to buddism, yes, there are spirits there.

I feel that I have written the most confusing and strange message. But I will not alter it, because I am too lazy.

[WindyHill]

Plenty of Christians go to a church because it (the church building) is the most convenient meeting place (to grow as Christians).

If we wanted to instead meet in a park, or on a boat, we could. The building itself doesn't hold a whole lot of significance.

[stellarrenegade]

Plenty of Christians go to a church because it (the church building) is the most convenient meeting place (to grow as Christians).

If we wanted to instead meet in a park, or on a boat, we could. The building itself doesn't hold a whole lot of significance.

Hmm, those are both really good ideas. I do think the place has some significance even if ultimately in the long run it may not, in another sense.

I see what Olga's saying though, but her point only goes to serve mine.

And how would the spirit leave, too? I'm confused. Are you assuming that the Spirit is there in the first place? Or do you mean something different than I do by "Spirit"? And why would it leave?

I meant that churches have a certain environment, that of the sanctuary, and it is that way because of what is in there. You follow?

Yep. In fact, Frank Viola (http://frankviola.wordpress.com) makes the point that it does often make a huge difference. The sanctuary is set up in just such a way that most of the church is kept as spectators while a few professionals do all the "ministry". Whereas meetings were always meant to involve everyone and anyone, ministering at any opportunity they chose to, even interrupting each other sometimes (yes, it's in the book! ) There's a stage and seats set up like an auditorium and everything has a distinct professional atmosphere to it, instead of a homey, familial atmosphere like a house.

Nothing wrong with meeting in places like that sometimes. But it does seem interesting that we tend to fall into the same habits when in a church building as opposed to the spontaneous types of meetings you often find in houses (though not always, there are still a slew of house churches that are very official in nature, which proves that it's NOT just all about the setting. But meeting in a house always does seem to change it up to a certain degree).

Ok, I do not believe in the Spirit because I have no idea what it is,

Short definition: the essence of the transcendent creator in whom the whole world exists, being made alive and real inside a group of individuals bonded and intrinsically united by love. That might be alot to take in, but there's alot to it. It's basically what Paul called the mystery of the ages, what God had hidden from ancient times until the times after Christ came to earth. We still don't really understand it that well because we haven't been initiated into it.

but if you go inside a place, and the environment of that place changes you (in this case more calm and peaceful), then surely it is the environment that is responsible, and not just that building? I say the spirit is there, because a transformation is possible. Now, if you change the envronment, surely the transformation will go away as well? So, the spirit leaves. I apologize for using the "Spirit" in a way that is not familiar to you, yet I believe it is not familiar to anyone anyway. You can say there are Spirit(s) in buddism as well. And using it the same way while applied to buddism, yes, there are spirits there.

Yeah, and the spirit that is typically present in a normal church building is not really that conducive to transformation. Usually more along the lines of alienation, from each other and especially from God. Sometimes God's Spirit is there, because He longs so much to be with us. But only when there's an open opportunity.

I feel that I have written the most confusing and strange message. But I will not alter it, because I am too lazy.

Haha, and don't worry, I understood every word.

[Olga]

Plenty of Christians go to a church because it (the church building) is the most convenient meeting place (to grow as Christians).

If we wanted to instead meet in a park, or on a boat, we could. The building itself doesn't hold a whole lot of significance.

You wrote WE, not THEY.



A Rational...!?

Cool!

[Olga]

"I see what Olga's saying though, but her point only goes to serve mine."

It is called COOPERATION!

"Nothing wrong with meeting in places like that sometimes. But it does seem interesting that we tend to fall into the same habits when in a church building as opposed to the spontaneous types of meetings you often find in houses (though not always, there are still a slew of house churches that are very official in nature, which proves that it's NOT just all about the setting. But meeting in a house always does seem to change it up to a certain degree)."

No, it is not, it is all about the visitor and his/her expectations.

"[SPIRIT] Short definition: the essence of the transcendent creator in whom the whole world exists, being made alive and real inside a group of individuals bonded and intrinsically united by love. That might be alot to take in, but there's alot to it. It's basically what Paul called the mystery of the ages, what God had hidden from ancient times until the times after Christ came to earth. We still don't really understand it that well because we haven't been initiated into it."

Ugh. The question is, what is it about humans, that make them want to relate to God?

"Sometimes God's Spirit is there, because He longs so much to be with us. But only when there's an open opportunity."

I still believe it lies in the mind/heart of the visitor/believer.

[bazymew]

I find this very intriguing. Stellarrenegade, are you still trying to change the world?

[stellarrenegade]

Whoops! Missed this.

"I see what Olga's saying though, but her point only goes to serve mine."

It is called COOPERATION!

i c wut u did thar

"Nothing wrong with meeting in places like that sometimes. But it does seem interesting that we tend to fall into the same habits when in a church building as opposed to the spontaneous types of meetings you often find in houses (though not always, there are still a slew of house churches that are very official in nature, which proves that it's NOT just all about the setting. But meeting in a house always does seem to change it up to a certain degree)."

No, it is not, it is all about the visitor and his/her expectations.

I totally disagree. I mean, yes I agree it's all about our expectations, but not that we can easily choose to turn them on/off. We fail to recognize how much setting has an impact not only on the partaker's conception of what is going on (subconsciously and consciously) but also on the functionality of the meetings. If a dynamic group of Christians who understand what it means to effectively experience Christ together had to meet in a church building, then I don't think it would necessarily affect the way they met. But I don't think they would choose it first, and I don't think they would use it the way it normally is used. (The "performance" and "spectator" mentality are absent in the essential Christian gathering, unless it's done in a rapidly rotating way in each meeting.)

"[SPIRIT] Short definition: the essence of the transcendent creator in whom the whole world exists, being made alive and real inside a group of individuals bonded and intrinsically united by love. That might be alot to take in, but there's alot to it. It's basically what Paul called the mystery of the ages, what God had hidden from ancient times until the times after Christ came to earth. We still don't really understand it that well because we haven't been initiated into it."

Ugh. The question is, what is it about humans, that make them want to relate to God?

roffle@you getting so easily frustrated. haha, sorry. I heart j00.

We want to relate so much to God because we are little bits of that Great Spirit, like droplets of water from the ocean, but more complex than that because we have an express identity that can never be taken away from us. The analogy of children also works, but takes away from the mysticality of it at the same time. No analogy covers every base.

"Sometimes God's Spirit is there, because He longs so much to be with us. But only when there's an open opportunity."

I still believe it lies in the mind/heart of the visitor/believer.

We can only conceive of so much on our own. There comes a point where it's no longer a matter of "free will". There are huge phenomena of various kinds (cultural/eventful/traditional/supernatural) which greatly affect our ability to perceive/understand what is going on.

I find this very intriguing. Stellarrenegade, are you still trying to change the world?

hah.

I've become a little more realistic and finally realized, it's going to take way more than just me to undertake such a thing. If anything, I'm a cog in the huge new working machine, or a monkey wrench thrown into the current system. Maybe a spark that starts the fire, or the needle weaving the thread in and out. If that, even. I don't really know what I am, all I know is that I totally understand what Jesus felt like when he said that there's a fire ready to be unleashed on the earth and how he wishes it were already ablaze.

I don't care how it happens anymore or if I have nothing to do with it. I just want the revolution to begin...

[bazymew]

I find this very intriguing. Stellarrenegade, are you still trying to change the world?

hah.

I've become a little more realistic and finally realized, it's going to take way more than just me to undertake such a thing. If anything, I'm a cog in the huge new working machine, or a monkey wrench thrown into the current system. Maybe a spark that starts the fire, or the needle weaving the thread in and out. If that, even. I don't really know what I am, all I know is that I totally understand what Jesus felt like when he said that there's a fire ready to be unleashed on the earth and how he wishes it were already ablaze.

I don't care how it happens anymore or if I have nothing to do with it. I just want the revolution to begin...

I believe those last two sentences indicate a good degree of intelligence and even humility. (At least for an attention-loving Sneaky Punk... )

Are you familiar with Stephen R. Covey's The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People? It's basically pure genius. I would highly recommend it for anyone, but especially for those trying to start any sort of movement.