Compulsion-based schooling is evil. You know it.

[RandomUser191]

well i'm glad you finally found yourself than. i remember you changing your types fairly often so i guess this means you won't have to do that again.

[shytiger]

well i'm glad you finally found yourself than. i remember you changing your types fairly often so i guess this means you won't have to do that again.

Yes, I'm done with switching. I wouldn't want to. Being a Counselor is great!

[MarmieDearest]

Kids need to learn that they shouldn't run out into the street or they'll get run over. They don't need to be run over to learn that. I understand that you want kids to learn about the difficulties of life but there's no need to put them through pain unnecessarily. You don't have to homeschool them, but do pay attention to how they're doing and make sure that they are getting the best you can give them.

Experience is how some people learn. I'm definitely not saying that children should get run over or be hit the face in order to learn to not do certain things, for sure. But on the other hand it's really not enough for some kids to learn by theory or by someone else telling them. In fact, once I got older (like late teens) I actually had a deep desire to learn things by experience rather than being told.

There's definitely a line between allowing your kids to get seriously hurt, and just allowing them to learn on their own. I'm a big fan of experiential learning and not keeping kids overly sheltered. Teens shouldn't be in the middle of hardened gangs shooting at each other, but witnessing a couple of fist fights is not going to damage them for life.

[MarmieDearest]

thanks for the compliment. i was thinking of praising you myself, for not jumping to conclusions but instead allowing me to explain myself. protectors tend to be misunderstood if we don't get a chance to explain what we meant. thank you for that.

EDIT: on a side note, are you notecing some idealist vibes inside yourself, shy? i got used to seeing blue beside your avatar.

It always takes me a minute to stop and listen rather than steamrolling over people with "The Right Way To Think" .

I've found my true type in the Counselor. I admit I worked very hard at my Rational persona but it never fit very well and I was unhappy with it. I always knew something was wrong with it but I was stubbornly resistant to changing everything I believed about myself. I am quite attracted to Inventors so it's not surprising I identified with them. I'm far more comfortable with diplomacy rather than strategy though. I guess my mother was right about me as she always believed me to be an Idealist. I am one of those math & science Counselors though (complimentary to Dave's humanities Masterminds) who tend to mistype themselves as Rationals.

I understand. I thought I was an Idealist at first, but then I realized I'm really not very diplomatic and quite shockingly impulsive sometimes in the views of some Idealists and Rationals. In my case I thought because I was concerned about society and culture that automatically made me an Idealist, but it's really not a good fit for me. Also, once I actually read PUMII I found that the Artisan temperament just overall fit me better, and when I read about Idealists I thought to myself "why do all of these people sound like social workers?!" ...it probably also shows in how my Guardian sister thinks I can be very selfish when I feel something strongly...I'm pretty sure an Idealist would be much quicker to be cooperative than myself, who honestly feels that Artisan need to make an impact on others even if its inappropriate or politically incorrect, as well as for freedom.

[shytiger]

I understand. I thought I was an Idealist at first, but then I realized I'm really not very diplomatic and quite shockingly impulsive sometimes in the views of some Idealists and Rationals. In my case I thought because I was concerned about society and culture that automatically made me an Idealist, but it's really not a good fit for me. Also, once I actually read PUMII I found that the Artisan temperament just overall fit me better, and when I read about Idealists I thought to myself "why do all of these people sound like social workers?!" ...it probably also shows in how my Guardian sister thinks I can be very selfish when I feel something strongly...I'm pretty sure an Idealist would be much quicker to be cooperative than myself, who honestly feels that Artisan need to make an impact on others even if its inappropriate or politically incorrect, as well as for freedom.

I'm like a natural social worker. I'm attracted to people who are in pain. If I see anybody lonely at a party, I engage them in conversation (I did this even as a child). It just seemed the right thing to do. The hurt, lonely ones were always more interesting.

I was attracted to science, mathematics, and technology, but I was more interested in it for having a sense of belonging and I liked hanging around with the Rationals. It was also a way of connecting to my father who, as an Engineer and a Crafter, was interested in these things. Mathematicians are a particularly insular bunch because the wider society views our work as so unappealing. It appeals to my need for a close-knit group. My strongest subject in high school was English by far, but I tend to be good at using other people as resources to do my work. My interest in the subject though has waned over time, and I am thinking of becoming a writer instead now.

I was for a long time worried about being seen as effeminate (to tie into the main discussion, this was the main source of bullying against me in school), but now I understand that it's possible to be masculine and sensitive at the same time so that doesn't bother me as much as it used to.

[MarmieDearest]

I understand. I thought I was an Idealist at first, but then I realized I'm really not very diplomatic and quite shockingly impulsive sometimes in the views of some Idealists and Rationals. In my case I thought because I was concerned about society and culture that automatically made me an Idealist, but it's really not a good fit for me. Also, once I actually read PUMII I found that the Artisan temperament just overall fit me better, and when I read about Idealists I thought to myself "why do all of these people sound like social workers?!" ...it probably also shows in how my Guardian sister thinks I can be very selfish when I feel something strongly...I'm pretty sure an Idealist would be much quicker to be cooperative than myself, who honestly feels that Artisan need to make an impact on others even if its inappropriate or politically incorrect, as well as for freedom.

I'm like a natural social worker. I'm attracted to people who are in pain. If I see anybody lonely at a party, I engage them in conversation (I did this even as a child). It just seemed the right thing to do. The hurt, lonely ones were always more interesting.

My nephew is like this. He's one of the few people I know personally who tested as ENFP who I believe is a REAL Idealist (I know an absurd number of people who test as ENFP and I'm not convinced, in fact think my sister is possibly an ESTP...my mom says she and I are more alike than my other two sisters, who are both Guardians, except that she's always been "rougher" and cockier than me). Anyway, my nephew has shown these incredibly diplomatic, personally insightful traits since middle childhood. He's obviously different in this manner, but I thought he might actually be a Teacher rather than a Champion before he took the test, just as a preschool aged child I know already seems like an obvious Artisan to me already because of her incredible boldness, sassiness, way of running off to be independent, refusal to admit she's hurt when she falls off her bike, and insistence that everyone pay attention to her. I think she's a little Promoter.

I was attracted to science, mathematics, and technology, but I was more interested in it for having a sense of belonging and I liked hanging around with the Rationals. It was also a way of connecting to my father who, as an Engineer and a Crafter, was interested in these things. Mathematicians are a particularly insular bunch because the wider society views our work as so unappealing. It appeals to my need for a close-knit group. My strongest subject in high school was English by far, but I tend to be good at using other people as resources to do my work. My interest in the subject though has waned over time, and I am thinking of becoming a writer instead now.

I was for a long time worried about being seen as effeminate (to tie into the main discussion, this was the main source of bullying against me in school), but now I understand that it's possible to be masculine and sensitive at the same time so that doesn't bother me as much as it used to.

Yes, I'm sure being attracted to science, math, and technology could throw you into thinking you're a Rational, just like my interest in Literature and culture made me think I might be an Idealist. But really my earliest impulse was to perform, dance, sing, and to create anything with my hands...including making up "recipes" for terrible cookies when I was seven or eight years old. I was a very physical, outdoorsy child who loved music. I also realized that there are Artisans, like Bill Clinton for example, who care about society and politics, that it doesn't necessarily make me an Idealist to have beliefs about society.

[shytiger]

My nephew is like this. He's one of the few people I know personally who tested as ENFP who I believe is a REAL Idealist (I know an absurd number of people who test as ENFP and I'm not convinced, in fact think my sister is possibly an ESTP...my mom says she and I are more alike than my other two sisters, who are both Guardians, except that she's always been "rougher" and cockier than me). Anyway, my nephew has shown these incredibly diplomatic, personally insightful traits since middle childhood. He's obviously different in this manner, but I thought he might actually be a Teacher rather than a Champion before he took the test, just as a preschool aged child I know already seems like an obvious Artisan to me already because of her incredible boldness, sassiness, way of running off to be independent, refusal to admit she's hurt when she falls off her bike, and insistence that everyone pay attention to her. I think she's a little Promoter.

I've always had these strong impulses to make people feel included or to connect with people, impulses which I often ignored out of fear of being attacked. I've noticed a variety of defense mechanisms among Counselors because of this paranoia. There is aloofness, a sort of bombastic over-friendliness, being downright insulting or critical, and just pretending to be somebody else entirely. Idealists seem to be whatever they think they are. It's a problem being yourself. And the more intelligent one is (and there are some very intelligent ones) the wider the variety of disguises.

Yes, I'm sure being attracted to science, math, and technology could throw you into thinking you're a Rational, just like my interest in Literature and culture made me think I might be an Idealist. But really my earliest impulse was to perform, dance, sing, and to create anything with my hands...including making up "recipes" for terrible cookies when I was seven or eight years old. I was a very physical, outdoorsy child who loved music. I also realized that there are Artisans, like Bill Clinton for example, who care about society and politics, that it doesn't necessarily make me an Idealist to have beliefs about society.

My early impulses were largely imaginative. I made up a lot of stories. I read a lot of fiction. I wrote a fair number of stories myself, and my earliest serious career aspiration was to be a novelist. I think I ran into trouble because I was also good with mathematics and computers, navigating largely by intuition, and the urge to make money from those interests was very strong as a poor teenager.

[Narnia51483]

It's funny you guys bring this up... I have started to question whether or not I am really a Champion. I still think I'm an Idealist, although I don't know which one.

[Narnia51483]

Shy, I think you are dead on about us Idealists. I think you may have hit the nail on the head with me... I think I might possibly be a counselor who thought it was better to be seen as fun and outgoing and silly and therefore I forced myself into that role thinking it was the real me, when in truth, the real me is much more reserved. I think I got tired of being called "shy, reserved, quiet" like I was a non-threat, a door mat, someone to be trampled. I wanted to be thought of as different than the quiet one who studied all the time and was smart but not very fun to be around because I wasn't into all the crazy stuff the other kids were, because I had better judgement than them. This is very trippy for me. I think I have been wearing a mask for many many years to please others and not be pigeonholed, not be in a box I didn't want to be in, not be underestimated. I hate being underestimated and written off.

[shytiger]

Shy, I think you are dead on about us Idealists. I think you may have hit the nail on the head with me... I think I might possibly be a counselor who thought it was better to be seen as fun and outgoing and silly and therefore I forced myself into that role thinking it was the real me, when in truth, the real me is much more reserved. I think I got tired of being called "shy, reserved, quiet" like I was a non-threat, a door mat, someone to be trampled. I wanted to be thought of as different than the quiet one who studied all the time and was smart but not very fun to be around because I wasn't into all the crazy stuff the other kids were, because I had better judgement than them. This is very trippy for me. I think I have been wearing a mask for many many years to please others and not be pigeonholed, not be in a box I didn't want to be in, not be underestimated. I hate being underestimated and written off.

It's possible. Counselors are mysterious in part because they change their personalities to fit the expectations of others and, rather than "putting on an act" like an Artisan, the Counselor really does become the person that others want them to be. People can't tell that they are "lying" because they really do believe it. I seemed very much the Counselor as a child but sort of "grew" into the Inventor role because I got tired of hiding in a corner. Even now the Inventor persona is attractive because of its ability to disregard the feelings of others and to be autonomous. It offers a compelling freedom.