The Scientific Revolution: A Kind of Rational

Thoughts on Keirsey Temperament

The Scientific Revolution: A Kind of Rational

Postby keirsey on Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:57 am

David M. Keirsey wrote:Ideas do not have to be correct in order to be good;
its only necessary that, when they do fail (and they will),
they do so in an interesting way.


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If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Issac Newton


Issac Newton was a reasonable man as long as he didn't have to suffer fools. This attitude made him appear as both an arrogant man and a humble man at the same time. This is not surprising, for he is one of the iconic examples of the personality temperament, called Rational, in particular a Mastermind.

Masterminds are not concerned with ideas, for their own sake, as much as the Architects, but rather are interested in ideas for their use and utility in reality. And Newton had no use for useless or wrong ideas, and for those people who could not see what was obvious to him. However, Newton saw far -- farther than anybody else in his age. But he did make one mistake, a brilliant mistake in a form of simplification, and with that, he, and notably his followers, opened up the world to reason and the scientific revolution.

Newton's Brilliant Mistake

Gottfried Leibniz had a problem. He wanted, but could not seem to find, a good explanation of how and why things moved. But Leibniz, the (independent) co-inventor of calculus, was no dummy. He hypothesized the world was composed of the notion of objects called "monads." He realized that if an object A influences an object B, then logically object B will influence object A. There is a logical paradox here, since each object influences each other, how does the influence come to equilibrium? Moreover, the question is how does one compute the combined influence. He just couldn't not seem to get started in the analysis [Smolin 97]. Leibniz, when coming to England, became excited and disappointed, for he had found that Newton had formulated a method, based on the concept of "mass," for proving that planets had a gravitational "force" which was proportional to the mass as the inverse of the square of the distance to the sun. Newton had accomplished what nobody had done before, generated a law of nature by mathematical construction.

The Pythagorean ... having been brought up in the study of mathematics, thought that things are numbers
... and that the whole cosmos is a scale and a number. --Aristotle


Hypothesis non fingo - Newton


"Hypothesis non fingo" meaning "I do not feign a hypothesis" is Newton's response when asked about what constitutes space. Being a Rational, he realized that he did not want to, or care to, speculate beyond what he established by meticulous and precise reasoning. Despite Newton's scientific humbleness and modesty: his statement is not exactly correct. First, he assumed an absolute space, and later Einstein corrected that. Second, his model of the world was constituted by "particles", that move continuously in space. Dynamics is the term for Newton's model, which is the foundation of modern physics. Part of this model is a form of hypothesis, but much more insidious and subtle than his first assumption. So subtle, we are grappling with the problem today more than 300 years later. What Newton assumed, was essentially a form of reductionism, akin to Pythagoras and his followers, essentially using Descartes' machine analogy in a precise manner. The problem, mostly propagated by Newton's followers, is to assume that the machine analogy is the only form of science. And we are all inheritor's of Newton's brilliant reduction: gladly so (except enemies of the future). For Issac Newton did not see Liebniz's problem. He had other fish to fry, and he had an interesting method and result that he had obtained when playing around mathematically with the binomial expansion using negative or fractional powers. This interesting method, calculus, makes an interesting assumption: that is, the world is continuous. Newton applied his new method to the real world, set out in a large degree in Principia Mathematica, and the rest is history. Laplace's clockwork universe became a reality. Well, almost.

Some limits cannot be computed, but only inferred.

Every school boy knows that the world is made of atoms.


Actually, according to some modern physicists, they think that the world is made of "strings" -- something akin to Newton's particles, a modern day form of Democritus' atoms. But what is makes a string? Back to Leibniz's dilemma in modern form. Newton, in assuming the notion of a finite "particle" that can exhibit continuous motion, he had assumed the world is discrete and continuous at the same time. The string theorists do the same. Why is a "string," finite (discrete) and the background, infinite (continuous)? It is assumed. That assumption has placed an unnecessary limitation on science. We cannot blame Newton for his mistake for he opened the world to the benefits of rigorous scientific reasoning using mathematics, but it is time to examine the Newtonian paradigm and find methods that do not make this limiting assumption.

Robert Rosen, Life Itself

Involution and Envolution: On the Structure and Process of Existence
Within which edge of chaos are you?
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Re: The Scientific Revolution: A Kind of Rational

Postby ENFP123 on Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:38 pm

I have a question that's been bothering me for a bit about complexity theory. In the grandest possible scale, a universal one I suppose, is there such a thing as absolute chaos and absolute order?
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Re: The Scientific Revolution: A Kind of Rational

Postby keirsey on Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:14 pm

ENFP123 wrote:I have a question that's been bothering me for a bit about complexity theory. In the grandest possible scale, a universal one I suppose, is there such a thing as absolute chaos and absolute order?


A great question, which I have an answer to.

You can see order and chaos as opposite points on a circle, where the balanced of chaos/order is the edge-of-order/chaos. But you can see the order and chaos are linked, in a reciprocal manner, such that pure chaos and pure order are the same, they meet in the same place.

They are the same thing: ABSOLUTE CHAOS = ABSOLUTE ORDER = NO THING = NOTHING

Besides boundaries of "in/out" there is the boundary of the "large" and "small". The universe's boundary is probably having to do with a self-referencing at the large and small boundary. It is noted that the boundary between the Meta-Universe and the Universe is problematic both in conception and definition. It probably has to do with the confounding of "in/out" with the "large" and "small". For boundary at that level of complexity of the universe, large/small and in/out are probably the same.
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Re: The Scientific Revolution: A Kind of Rational

Postby ENFP123 on Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:38 am

Crazy, where is the boundary between the meta-universe and the universe? Simply beyond physical existence? Also is the process of dissipating order and replicating chaos the same? If so and Idealists are dissipators of order and artisans are replicators of chaos then they both would be doing the same macro social function.
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Re: The Scientific Revolution: A Kind of Rational

Postby ENFP123 on Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:03 pm

Wait I think I get it, the idealist break traditions which allow for new ones to emerge (created by artisans) and vise verse the artisans create traditions aka culture and which allow for idealists to destroy them. So the processes are reciprocal but actually different.
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Re: The Scientific Revolution: A Kind of Rational

Postby jwetmore on Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:11 am

Let me weigh in on ENFP123's ideas with some speculations about traditions.

Artisans do not create traditions. The create events and celebrations. These do not become traditions until Guardians adopt them, repeat them, and instiutionalize them.

Traditions are important to Idealists as long as they support morale and unity. This seems true of Teachers, but I am less certain of the other Idealist temperaments.

Traditions are important to at least some Rationals (Architects and I think Materminds) because of the knowledge that traditions represent. Friedrich Hayek (Mastermind, I think) wrote about knowledge synthesis in traditions and cultures and how in order to survive, traditions needed to contain useful knowledge and useful behaviors that gave the practioners added fitness (in the evolutionary sense of the word). While he examined traditions to find rational reasons for them (so that he could further his understanding of truth and the comlex system of human behavior and culture) he cautioned against dismissing tradition and culture even if the reasons behind them were not understood. Thomas Sowell is another Rational (Architect) who has written extensively in the same manner as Hayek about knowledge, culture and tradition. Richard Dawkins (Mastermind?) is also an interesting case. He is an ethologist, and an atheist. But he enjoys the celebrations of religious holidays such as Christmas. I enjoy traditions. I just expect the Guardians will do all of the work of organizing, so I can just be a spectator.

Feel free to disagree with my speculations and offer your own insights.
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Re: The Scientific Revolution: A Kind of Rational

Postby The Grey Badger on Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:43 am

I quite agree.
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Re: The Scientific Revolution: A Kind of Rational

Postby ENFP123 on Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:49 am

What I'm saying is if you take a look at Architron's post "Combining the Keirsey's" he talks about temperamental functions within a society, if you take a look at society as a whole you find that there are 4 distinct types of people and symbolically if they are arranged in the fashion of DMkeirsey's Complexity Theory each temperament acts like one of the 4 parts of the cycle: Chaos (Rational), Replication of Chaos (Artisan), Order (Guardian), Dissipation of Order (Idealist). Within the system of a society there are chaotic events occurring (Non normal, unpredictable[relative], non traditional), these seem to represent how a rational acts within a society. An artisan takes these spontaneous random acts and begins to replicate them, that is why they seem edgy and cool and "on front", Guardians then pick up on the replication of certain acts and make them into the established Order by continuing to do those actions actions. Finally Idealist dissipate or try to destroy old ways of thinking, this way breaking traditions down and allowing for more chaos.

That was vague and probably seems like a load of BS but the more I think about it the more true it seems.

And what I was saying in my previous post was that act of Replicating Order and Dissipating Chaos seemed the same to me, but instead I think they are reciprocals hence the actions of Artisans versus Idealist are drastically different.
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Re: The Scientific Revolution: A Kind of Rational

Postby jwetmore on Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:59 am

ENFP123, your most recent post is well articulated and thought provoking. The equilibrium of the various temperaments in a society is of interest to me. I suspect that different cultures (at different stages of their development) have different stable ratios of temperaments. (There are equilibiums in chaos.) A culture of inovation, such as we enjoy today encourages a different mix of temperaments than a stone age culture. An authoritarian society would have a different mix than a democratic society. All just speculation of course.
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Re: The Scientific Revolution: A Kind of Rational

Postby ENFP123 on Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:24 am

jwetmore wrote:ENFP123, your most recent post is well articulated and thought provoking. The equilibrium of the various temperaments in a society is of interest to me. I suspect that different cultures (at different stages of their development) have different stable ratios of temperaments. (There are equilibiums in chaos.) A culture of inovation, such as we enjoy today encourages a different mix of temperaments than a stone age culture. An authoritarian society would have a different mix than a democratic society. All just speculation of course.


Thanks :). I have thought about the ratio's of temperaments as well, And I agree that there are probably differences between different regions. Anybody have any insights on the matter?
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